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Post by LJScott on May 22, 2006 22:19:49 GMT -5
Sorry to everyone for the confusion, I thought a TJ was a coil spring jeep regardless of wheel base, I didn't know an unlimited is an LJ. I guess I need to change my name and my thread.
So the consensus seems to be a 2" body lift with 1" to 2" of suspension lift. The LJ driveshaft is OK.
One of the books I read suggested that the most common off road jeep failure was poor tune-up parts/maintenance and number two was front U-joints so thats why I was looking at stronger U-joints.
How hard is an axle shaft to change out for stronger shafts?
The more I hear the more I like the Kilby gas tank skid, Jeep Medic engine skid and Nth degree tummy tucker.
I wasn't looking at differential skids because everything I have heard is they aren't worth the lost ground clearance and if I remember right at Jeep 101 the stronger ifferential covers were suggested as the way to go.
Once again thanks for all the help.
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Post by LJScott on May 22, 2006 23:36:01 GMT -5
kevin
TJeff said you run a 3.5" RE lift. Is it the standard or the Superflex? Do you have an opinion for how worthwhile the Superflex is?? How much degradation in the on-road handling did you experience? Are you on 33" tires now??
Thanks
Scott
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Post by tjeff on May 23, 2006 4:55:31 GMT -5
HEY, He posted lifting a TJ not an LJ  Sup with dat Besides...what's the difference, as far as suspension, other than wheelbase? We run a 2" BB with a 1" BL and 1" MML. Teraflex belly up, and a Skidrow engine skid. A Jeep (mopar) steering box skid, and Warn diff guards front and rear. 33" MTRs clear with minimal rubbing with the sway bar disconnected. An LJ is a TJ, and for a short arm kit, they are identical. However when people start bringing up driveline vibes, an LJ is not the same as a TJ in that aspect. Hope this cleares up the confusion all you SWB guys are having.  TJScott, I almost forgot, Ron, the owner of Alloy USA stated if anyone broke a ujoint running his front shafts with the outer 30 spline conversion, he'd replace them with CTM's for free. Kind of gives a lot of credit to the spicer u-joints, just like Kev said, it's the ears on the stock shafts that people are having problems with, not the ujoints. However, the stock set up also has problems with the caps coming off too. |
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Post by Kevin W. on May 23, 2006 6:09:44 GMT -5
Sorry to everyone for the confusion, I thought a TJ was a coil spring jeep regardless of wheel base, I didn't know an unlimited is an LJ. I guess I need to change my name and my thread. So the consensus seems to be a 2" body lift with 1" to 2" of suspension lift. The LJ driveshaft is OK. One of the books I read suggested that the most common off road jeep failure was poor tune-up parts/maintenance and number two was front U-joints so thats why I was looking at stronger U-joints. How hard is an axle shaft to change out for stronger shafts? The more I hear the more I like the Kilby gas tank skid, Jeep Medic engine skid and Nth degree tummy tucker. I wasn't looking at differential skids because everything I have heard is they aren't worth the lost ground clearance and if I remember right at Jeep 101 the stronger ifferential covers were suggested as the way to go. Once again thanks for all the help. I think what people are suggesting is a 2" BB (budget boost = 2" tall coil spacers_ + a 1.25" BL = Body Lift. Axle shaft is amazingly easy to change. I did mine in the driveway with an air tools in about 1 hour. 45 minutes for one side and then 15 minutes for the other side when I was confident with what I was doing. I don't know of any differential skids that really cause you do loose ground clearence.... The thing I like about them, is the stock differential cover bolts are prone to getting banged up. Once those bolts get really damaged, it can be a real pain in the butt to remove the cover. As jeep suggested earlier - go onto www.rubiconownersforum.com and read read read. Most of the stuff on their is pretty good advice. Whatever you do, do not spend a penny until you've asked 500 questions  KEV |
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Post by Kevin W. on May 23, 2006 6:20:03 GMT -5
kevin TJeff said you run a 3.5" RE lift. Is it the standard or the Superflex? Do you have an opinion for how worthwhile the Superflex is?? How much degradation in the on-road handling did you experience? Are you on 33" tires now?? Thanks Scott Scott, I have a "hybrid" kit. Its a RE Superflex 4.5" with 3.5" coils substituted. The 4.5" gives you more things standard in the kit to save cost in the end. All 8 control arms are adjustable in length so I can fine tune the axle angles, as well as the relative location of the axle front/back in the wheel well. I also changed to a JKS front track bar and JKS disconnects. Got OME shocks. OME steering stabalizer. Currie rear shock relocators. I don't remember exactly what each kits includes and doesn't, but I think the standard 3" is pretty much only coils. Then the superflex 3" includes superflex lower arms and disconnects. Then if you go to the superflex 4.5" and switch to 3.5" springs, you add the upper arms plus track bar. In the end, my lift cost something like 1400-1500 bucks 2 years ago. Its not cheap, but I'm really happy with it. It flexes like a "bastid". I am REALLY REALLY anal about how it drives. I don't want any bumpsteer. I don't want any deathwobble. I don't want any shimmmys. So, being able to fine tune the entire suspension really works well. The main advantage of doing a 3-4" lift is that I can add a body lift to run 35's - which is the plan for the future. If you do a 2" budget boost and 1.25" body lift, you are sorta "stuck" at that height. You can't really add to it easily. The major advantage is that you've only spent 200 bucks on the budget boost, not 1400 on a full suspension! KEV |
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Post by ZAEDOCK on May 23, 2006 7:03:43 GMT -5
I am a new member of Baystate Jeepers. I attended Jeep 101 a few weeks ago and it became clear pretty quickly that if I am going to be serious about off-road driving, I need larger tires. My current rig is: 2006 Rubicon Unlimited, 4.0L, automatic, Dana 44 axles with 4.11 axle ratios and air lockers and 31” tires. I am thinking about a 4” lift, 33” tires and additional skid plating. Specifically: - I have been looking at 4” lift kits and I am currently leaning towards a Tuff Country 4" EZ-Flex System. This seems to be well reviewed and more complete than other kits, for example it includes shocks. - For new tires I am thinking at Goodyear 285/75 R16 33" tires – I currently have the stock Rubicon Goodyear 31” tires. I am planning to use the current 16” x 8” “MOAB” wheels that came on the Jeep. Will I need new flairs or anything else? - CTM front U-Joints – I understand this is a particular weakness and the original U-joints won’t handle the 33” tires. - I am currently planning to stay with the stock 4.11 gearing in the axles. - I am currently planning to stay with the stock drive shaft although I am questioning whether this is OK?? - For skid plating I have a Skid Row steering box skid plate I will put in at the same time as the lift. I am also thinking about a RockCrusher Heavy Duty Differential Cover and Skid Row Automotive Lower Control Arm Skid Plates. I am also considering but haven’t decided on improved engine/transmission and gas tank skid plating. I would be very interested in any comments, suggestions or questions anyone may have. Thanks in advance for any help! TJ = Total Junk. LJ = Little Jeep (oxymoron) Wha ha ha ha ha ha Rough Country makes great lift kits. They are more popular out west, but actually, that's what I would use if I had a TJ. Either that or go lower with a Rancho Rockcrawler 2 1/2". I have blown a dozen u-joints over the last few years. It IS indeed the ears that usually let go first (or a cap loosens up). With only 33's, you'll be ok for a long time. If it really bugs you, run alloy shafts and spicer 760's. You don't have to go too nuts with skid plates. A nice belly and steering box skid will suffice for now. Actually, I would keep the factory belly skid until I beat it. I also don't think the trails that Baystate runs requires those fancy control arm skids. Remember that you're not re-gearing, and added weight will make it worse. Attend a few runs and get the feel for your rig. 90% of the time, you can compensate for lack of skids/lift with driving ability. Don't feel that you need to have all the fancy stuff. My YJ doesn't have any aftermarket skids. Granted, the belly is pretty beat from over 10 years of wheeling, but she holds together ok. Oh, I would bet that the stock driveshaft would probably work. Try it out and see. If it vibes, then worry about it. Joe's $.02 |
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Post by baseshakers on May 23, 2006 8:38:53 GMT -5
as for skid plates, i would recommend the front control arm skid plates (weld on). $25 or so. i bashed my mount really badly and almost split the control arm. the stock TC skid will hold up for a while, as will the gas tank skid. i can tell you, however, that my tank is down about 3 gallons in capacity from the dented gas tank skid, so that will have to be replaced soon.
depending on how much you want to spend, you could start with a 2" BB and build your way up from there. if you have the $ to drop now, you could go a bit higher.
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jayr
Member
rather be wheelin...
Posts: 18
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Post by jayr on May 23, 2006 10:10:49 GMT -5
To aid in your confusion here's my take: If money is not a concern (right!) get a long arm kit as everyone Ive come across gives them rave reviews both on and off road. As for the cheaper short arm kits, a 3" one should allow fitment of 33s with possible tire rub of the front fenders when sway bars are disconnected and tires are fully stuffed (or fully flexed or your own term). If you go with 10.5" wide tires vs. 12.5 the possibility is slightly decreased due to the smaller tread width. Rubicon Express (RE) kits seem to be the most well documented in terms of popularity and reviews. Others that consistently get props are Old Man Emu (OME), Nth degree, and Clayton. Most long arm kits either require or recommend welding of certain components. Another option is Full Traction (FT). I got their 3" Economy kit from Summitracing.com for $549 + $9 S/H which included springs, discos, rear ext. sway bar links, front adj. trac bar, rear trac bar reloc bracket, bump stop ext., hardware and shocks. However they have changed the packaging at most vendors and have deleted the shocks so you must buy them separately now. I have also read that many vendors have backordered this kit due to high demand. This kit has performed very well for me on and off road on up to 6-rating trails (have not been on any 7s or above yet - soon to change!). All the pieces are heavy duty and went on w/o a problem. As others have said previous, due to the LJs longer wheelbase, typically you do not have to worry about driveshaft (ds) vibes or ds changes until you get at above 5-6" of lift. Aftermarket lower control arms (LCAs) will get you your wheelbase back and uppers (UCAs) will allow you to set your pinion and caster angles if necessary after a lift. Good arms are RE, Currie, and JKS among others. I have Rockkrawler front LCAs and would not recommend them as their joints are noisy (the price is right however!). FT also has a fully bolt on 4 and 6" long arm kit for the TJ/LJ and you can read a well done recent write up of a 6" long arm install on a TJ at www.4x4xplor.com. The quality of the shock will determine your on road ride, and everyone says that OME gives the best road ride and work pretty well off road. My FT shocks are definitely stiffer than stock but I knew that going in. They work very well offroad so the trade off is worth it IMO. Another great resource for info is www.jeepforum.com where you can read MANY opinions on lift kits PLUS in the Vendor thread, you have the vendors competing for your business (like lending tree) once you decide what to get get! As for skids, if you dont already have an oil pan skid def get one cause a busted oil pan is a fix you do not want to have to deal with on the trail. I have the Jeep medic fab on my LJ and it fits/performs fine. Others that will fit are the Skid row and the Nth. No belly up or tummy tucker replacement for me yet but I will do this down the road. The stock tcase skid seems beefy enough (albeit low) for now as does the gas tank skid IMO. The best thing to do as others have said, is research by reading and asking questions b4 you buy. HTH, Jay |
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Post by LJScott on May 24, 2006 12:59:14 GMT -5
Once again, thank you to everyone for all the great inputs! At this point I have read through this board, several other boards suggested in this thread and a half dozen books – including the other Scott’s favorite Jeep 4x4 performance handbook. The following is my summary of what I have learned and am currently thinking. It seems to me that there are two basic rules we all have to wrestle with. The first is that the more you build up your jeep for off-road the worse the on-road handling is. I know there is some wiggle room to this rule in that some of the better solutions have less trade-offs. The second rule is that the better the off-road performance you want the more you have to spend. Once again there is some wiggle room in this with better and worse values and this also interacts with the first rule to some extent, for example some of the expensive lift kits provide good off-road and on-road performance. The bottom line is we all have to make our own decisions about the on-road – off-road trade-off and what we are willing or able to spend to achieve it. To recap, I have an LJ Rubi with 31” tires. I have already decided that I want to go to 33” tires. The way I see it there are three classes of solutions to get to 33” tires: The first solution is the low cost approach. This is the RE 2” budget boost for $233 plus a 1” body lift. For about $400 you get 3” of lift, the center of the jeep is up 4” including the tires (an additional $1,200 or so), you can fit 33” tires and the shocks provide some increase in travel. The on-road performance is probably not degraded much and you get a respectable boost in off-road performance. This is an easy solution to install. The second solution is the mid priced approach. This is a 3-1/2” suspension lift with short arms in the $600 to $900 range plus shocks for another $200 to $300. This solution degrades the on-road ride a little more than the low cost approach?? This approach provides a significant increase in off-road performance beyond the low cost approach. The 3-1/2” lift plus tires (an additional $1,200 or so) move up the jeep by 4-1/2”, articulation of the suspension is dramatically increased. This is a more involved solution to install but still something a reasonably mechanical person can do. You do need to get the front end aligned when you are done. The third solution is the high price approach. This is a 3-1/2” (or greater) suspension lift with long arms in the $2,700 range. This solution does not affect on-road performance much and dramatically improves off-road performance. This solution is difficult to install and often requires exhaust system modifications, front end alignment, possibly some welding, etc. So where I am at this point is a mid priced solution. Over and over again I keep hearing good things about RE so I am currently leaning towards the RE 3-1/2” superflex set up for $879 plus OME shocks for $291. So does anyone want to try to talk me out of it?  |
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Post by ZAEDOCK on May 24, 2006 13:42:19 GMT -5
...The second rule is that the better the off-road performance you want the more you have to spend... The third solution is the high price approach. This is a 3-1/2” (or greater) suspension lift with long arms in the $2,700 range. This solution does not affect on-road performance much and dramatically improves off-road performance. So does anyone want to try to talk me out of it? Buy a YJ...hehehe I'm not going to try and talk you out of it, but I do want to say that you don't have to spend mucho $$$ to get the best performance. For example, there are probably only a handful of drivers in Baystate that would actually benefit from a long arm suspension. Until you reach that level as a driver, both perform the same. Heck, I've gone places where a couple of long arm guys didn't and that's with leaf springs(not braggin' here...well maybe a little  ). Bottom line: Trick suspensions are cool, but the ultimate in Jeep performance comes from you. |
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Post by LJScott on May 24, 2006 13:56:31 GMT -5
Zaedock, I may not have been clear. I am not planning on the high price solution. I agree I don't need/could not use that level of solution. I am currently leaning towards a mid priced RE 3.5" short arm lift.
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Post by Scott on May 24, 2006 15:32:49 GMT -5
Again, Just Empty Every Pocket Sounds like you have a good Idea of where your going and why. Keep in mind that the Teraflex 3T lift is upgradeable later on as your driving skills and experience grow. this kit would be under $700. w/ shocks. With 3T kit I think my on road performance/handling has NOT suffered, in fact it may have gotten better. used the Teraflex shocks... The Other Scott |
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Post by Kevin W. on May 24, 2006 17:59:33 GMT -5
Sounds like you have described it pretty well... can't really argue with you ! I don't think a long arm lift rides better then a 2" budget boost though. Even though the control arms are flattened out, you're still dealing with all kinds of screwy geometries. The steering system needs help. The driveline will be more likely have vibration issues. The best thing you can now, is ask people for a ride or even a test drive of their jeep. You are more then welcome to take mine around the block and see how it handles. The LJ will ride better then a TJ, so you're really only looking at worst case scenario! If you're deciding between Tera and RE. The tera coils are known to be softer. If you strictly look at the coils, I think Tera is a better solution. If you look at the other components of the kit, I think RE beats teraflex without a doubt. The best kit would be to run tera coils and then RE control arms. Then get jks front track bar, ome shocks and jks discos. I actually thought about this combination when I did my lift, but decided to just stay all RE. KEV |
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Post by ZAEDOCK on May 25, 2006 5:44:42 GMT -5
Zaedock, I may not have been clear. I am not planning on the high price solution. I agree I don't need/could not use that level of solution. I am currently leaning towards a mid priced RE 3.5" short arm lift. You were clear and I do understand that you're not getting the "high price" solution. What I am saying to you is that you are under the assumption that a long arm kit offers the ultimate in off-road ability. That is not the case. |
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Post by Jon W on May 25, 2006 17:18:55 GMT -5
So where I am at this point is a mid priced solution. Over and over again I keep hearing good things about RE so I am currently leaning towards the RE 3-1/2” superflex set up for $879 plus OME shocks for $291. So does anyone want to try to talk me out of it? You also want to plan on either performing an alignment yourself or taking it to a shop once the lift is installed. For the kit you're planning to install I don't see a way around it... The stock steering system uses an "inverted Y" geometry to connect the tie-rod and draglink. As you lift the jeep the angle from the knuckle to the steering box/pitman arm increases... With the inverted Y setup that means the tie-rod (which is connected to the draglink on one side and the driver's knuckle on the other) will pull"the tires together and you'll get more toe-in. To correct this you'll want to realign the steering to prevent your tires from wearing prematurely. You'll also notice the steering wheel won't be centered properly until you get the alignment. JW |
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Sup with dat
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